WW2 Royal Marines
Many Marines as well as Naval and Royal Artillery men served as DEMS crews on Merchant ships during WW2 (and before that WW1)
Many died when there ships were torpedoed on the Atlantic Convoys or sunk in the freezing seas on the Arctic convoys routes.
Typical of many of the Royal Marines lost as DEMS Gunners in WW2 is that they are only listed to HMS President, which is an admin base set up to manage their drafts and pay etc.
Assigned onto a merchant ship I imagine as a 'supernumery', it means that their story doesnt even start, are they only manifested in the ships records, or were they allocated to a vessel by another department where there may be records?
Is it a failing by the Royal Navy to maintain proper records that means we do not know what ship these men were assigned to, or where they died, many are just one of thousands of names on a memorial plaque.
I update as many as I can on my Roll of Honour page and try to match them to a ship but its not easy.
Its a real shame...
If you have a relative that served in the Royal Marines and died or was killed in service please check my Roll of Honour and if you can add anything please let me know.
Back to the missing DEMS gunners:
From this AI search below, it seems that the Merchant Navy record may have their names as they were assigned to the ship, how many families though there was a ship called HMS President I wonder?
Another unfortunate irony is that that AI often point me back to my own website... and I dont have the answers sorry...
So can you help? Or do you have a relative that is listed as President?
Can you tell me which ship WENLOCK, George H P, Sergeant, RM, PLY/E 21836, MPK royal marines was killed on
ChatGPT said:
I wasn’t able to find any definitive record showing that a Sergeant George H. P. Wenlock, Royal Marine (service number PLY/E 21836), died aboard a specific ship in publicly available casualty lists spanning World War I, the interwar years, or post‑World War II naval records naval-history.net, 4naval-history.net, royalmarineshistory.com.
To resolve this properly, the best course would be to consult primary or specialist sources:
1. Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) – They maintain detailed records of members of the British armed forces killed during the World Wars. Searching their database for “George H. P. Wenlock” or service number PLY/E 21836 might reveal more information.
2. The National Archives (UK) – References like ADM 171 (Royal Navy officers’ service records) and ADM 159 (war diaries, ship logs) could contain documentation of his death and the vessel involved.
3. Unit or ship-specific histories – If Sgt. Wenlock served with a particular Royal Marine detachment or was embarked on a ship at time of death, muster books or ship logs could help.
If you have access to any of these resources—or can request searches via CWGC or the National Archives—I can help guide you through the process. Let me know if you’d like assistance locating these records or interpreting what you find!
Sources
You said:
It was a merchant ship on 13 March 1941
ChatGPT said:
Sergeant George Henry Percival Wenlock (PLY/21836), Royal Marines, died on 13 March 1941 while serving aboard H.M.S. President III, a shore establishment of the Royal Navy based in the UK—not a merchant shipdbpedia.org, rmhistorical.com, naval-history.net.
Though not a seagoing vessel,
H.M.S. President III functioned as a “stone frigate” (a shore-based naval facility) serving administrative and training roles during the war.
If your information indicates he was killed on a merchant ship on that date, it may reflect a misunderstanding of where he was posted—sometimes servicemen temporarily attached to merchant vessels or administrative bases involved in convoy support retain their home HMS designation. But according to Royal Marines memorial records, his official vessel at the time of death was H.M.S. President III.
Would you like assistance in locating his service file or CWGC memorial details to explore further?
Sources
You said:
Which ships were sunk on 13 March 1941
ChatGPT said:
Here are the merchant ships and related vessels reported sunk on 13 March 1941:
📌 Ships Sunk on 13 March 1941
From the UK Bombing Attacks (Glasgow & Liverpool area) iwm.org.uk, ww2db.com, naval-history.net:
• Empire Frost – 7,005 t British cargo steamer (previously damaged, sank in Irish Sea)
• Tacoma City – 4,738 t British merchant steamer (mined in Mersey Estuary)
• Perseus – 1,307 t Dutch steamship (air‑torpedoed off Bardsey Island; crew rescued)
• Bullger – 304 t British tug (struck a mine in Druridge Bay)
• Ullapool – 4,891 t Norwegian steam merchant (mined in River Mersey; 16 lost)
• Samlanes – 842 t Norwegian cargo ship (mined off the Lizard Peninsula; all 15 lost)
Additional listing from the Battle of the Atlantic timeline dbpedia.org+3ww2db.com+3military-history.fandom.com+3:
• Reaffirms Empire Frost was sunk by aircraaft as part of convoy SC 23.
🧭 Summary Table
VesselTonnageFate & LocationCasualtiesEmpire Frost7,005 tBombed, sank in Irish Sea6 lostTacoma City4,738 tMine, Mersey Estuary—Perseus1,307 tAir-torpedo, off Bardsey IslandCrew rescued next dayBullger304 tMine, Druridge Bay—Ullapool4,891 tMine, River Mersey16 lostSamlanes842 tMine, off Lizard PeninsulaAll 15 crew lost
These six merchant vessels were sunk on that same day—primarily due to mines and air attacks. If you're cross-referencing service records (like Sgt. Wenlock’s), these maritime losses might be relevant, especially if he was attached to one of these ships.
Would you like more details on any specific ship, such as crew lists, location coordinates, or links to memorial or official casualty records?
Sources
You said:
Yes please. lets see if he was listed on one of these ships as a DEMS gunner
ChatGPT said:
I wasn’t able to find any concrete records—DEMS (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships) ship’s cards or Royal Marine service files—linking Sergeant George H. P. Wenlock to Empire Frost, Tacoma City, Perseus, Ullapool, or Samlanes for 13 March 1941. Most DEMS gunners, including those from the Royal Marines, are documented in card files if they served on a particular ship bbc.com 4nationalarchives.gov.uk royalmarineshistory.com, but Wenlock doesn’t appear to be listed in the currently indexed data.
What we know:
• DEMS gunners—whether Royal Navy, Royal Marine, or Royal Artillery—were required to sign what were effectively crew agreements aboard merchant vessels, but their individual ship information is often not included in military service records merchant-navy.net and royalmarineshistory.com
• The full WO 435 (Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships: Ships’ Cards) and WO 436 (Royal Artillery Maritime Record Cards) series, held by The National Archives, do catalog ships and gunners, but individual RM listings are partially digitized and not yet cross-referenced by name nationalarchives.gov.uk.
• Online forum and research notes affirm that tracing a specific Royal Marine gunner to a particular ship usually requires consulting WO 435 directly at TNA
Thank you for reading....